In Conversation with Bobby Hartstein - Field Bulletin USA Travel Club

Q: What years did you coach the Lincoln Railsplitters?

A: I was an assistant coach for two years. I started as the head coach from 1980 through 1995.

Q: How would you describe New York City’s Public School Athletic League (PSAL) in the eighties and nineties?

A: Again, it's hard for me to compare, but based on what I've seen, I don't think the league has ever been stronger than those years. I think most people who were around during that time would say that was the peak of the PSAL in terms of how strong it was.

There were so many really, really good teams and outstanding players in New York City basketball in general, but especially in the PSAL.

Q: In the period from 1980 to 1995, what pros did you coach at Lincoln?

A: Well, I coached Stephon Marbury would be the first one that comes to mind, but also Jamel Thomas, who played for me, who played a little bit in the NBA. These are the guys that played for me.

That I coached against? Wow. Pearl Washington, Kenny Anderson. Well, we're talking about only PSAL or New York City in general. Kenny Anderson, Mark Jackson, John Sally, Rod Strickland. I'm probably leaving some others out. I mean, there were so many in those years. Conrad McRae, Roosevelt Chapman, again, we're going back a long time. There were so many, I may be leaving somebody out, but that's pretty good roster, what I just read to you.

Q: On the topic of Pearl Washington, in your mind, how did he compare to Stephon Marbury?

Q: Well, for me, this is only for me. If PSAL, the best two point guards I ever saw or coached or coached against would be Stephon and Pearl. My third guy who would be up there in that same category would be Kenny Anderson, who obviously played in the Catholic school. Then you also had Rod Strickland and Mark Jackson.

But as far as Pearl and Stephon, very different. Pearl was probably about 195 pounds and incredible. He was unstoppable as far as taking it to the basket and doing whatever he wanted. He had a great handle.

Stephon was a great shooter as well as a super athlete. So obviously, I'm a little partial to Stephon because I coached him, but Pearl was as dominant as anybody I've ever seen at the guard spot in high school.

Pearl was basically unstoppable in high school, and Stephon was the national high school player of the year. So yeah, I'm talking about New York City. We're talking about the number one player in the United States. Him and Kevin Garnet were one and one in 1995. Stephon won a Gatorade National Player of the Year. So we're talking about somebody was rated the number one high school player in America.

Q: When did you first meet Stephon or see him play?

A: Okay, it's two different questions. I'll answer the question. I first met him because I coached his brothers, the oldest one, Eric, I really was an assistant coach. I didn't really have much to do with Eric. Coaching-wise, but Don played two years for me. My first year of coaching, Don was a junior at Lincoln, so I had Don for two years. Then I had Norman for four years. Then I had Stephon for four years. And then Zach for one year was my last year of coaching. Stephon’s senior year was Zach's freshman year, but when I first met Stephon, he was probably three years old, four when he used to come to the games with his family. And when he was like seven or eight, nine, he was at every game.

And of course, Norman, he was very close with Norman. They're the closest in age. So he would come to all the games with Norman, and then he started coming to practice after his junior high school day was over. He would come to Lincoln to watch practice. So I got to know him real well, but I never actually saw him play, even though he kept bugging me, coach come and watch me play. I never did until the first day. He tried out at Lincoln in the tryouts as a ninth grader. I saw him shoot around after practice when the kids went down to the locker room, he would shoot around. But I never actually saw him in a five-on-five situation until his first day at Lincoln, his first day of tryouts.

Q: What do you remember from that? What was he like as a 12-year-old or a 13-year-old?

A: Well, everybody used to tell me during the games, everybody that was watching the games, friends and whatever, he would put on a show at halftime, from what I understand, because we're down in the locker room, so I didn't even saw any of it. Later on, people would tell me, you should have seen Stephon at halftime putting on dribbling exhibitions, shooting the ball from all over the court.

So his reputation was huge, even when he was in the fourth or fifth or sixth grade, even though I knew him at that point, I never saw him in a real situation. I heard all about his skill level. And then when I actually saw him during the tryout, which it's crazy, I remember this, but I do, he was five-eight, a hundred thirty-eight. He was five-eight, a hundred thirty-eight pounds when he first tried out, that was what his medical said. So it was a small little thing, and I made him like everyone else.

He had a tryout with the ninth graders, the kids from last year's team. I never had them try out the first day. I would've all the newcomers try out. So even though he had this reputation, and even though I knew him since he was a baby, I told him right then and he'll verify it even now. He had to earn whatever he is going to get. So he tried out with ninth graders, and at Lincoln you might get 150, 200 kids trying out about 90% of them could hardly play or not varsity material, let's put it like that. So he had to play against kids that, and I could tell he was very frustrated that I made him do that, but he had to earn his way playing with the big boys, and he did. It was very obvious immediately his skill level was ridiculous. Even then. It was just a matter of him continuing to get better and grow and which obviously did all those things, but very special. Very special.

Q: How did Stephon develop over his four years with you?

A: Well, physically, I would say he must have wound 6’2”, 180, 175 when he was a senior. Yeah, right around there.

Q: When did you first realize he was a pro?

A: Well, I knew he had a skill level. Obviously, you know how difficult it is. We've had loads and loads of great players come through New York City, especially guards and I don't know what percent, 90 something percent of them are not going to make the NBA as good as they were in high school. But you could see the skill level was incredible if he continued to develop, which he did, and his work ethic was phenomenal. And so it's hard to say exactly when, but it was obvious to me at some point that he was going to be, if nothing unusual happened, he was going to be a pro. I can't say his skill level was there right from the beginning. Obviously, at that size, he had a lot of, but all his brothers 6’1”, 6’2”, 6’3.” You never know for sure. But his skill level was incredible and his work ethic, and he wanted to keep learning and getting better to his credit.

Q: When Steph was a junior and senior, what was the hoopla like around him in the city?

A: Insane.

Well, I was the director of the A, B, C, the All American camp. I think you probably know that. I don't know if you know that. I was the director of the ABC All American camp, which was the number one camp.

And Tom (Konchalski), rest in peace, he was one of the people responsible for us. He helped us make the teams for the camp. It was me, Gary DeCesare, and Tom who did all the teams. We would sit in a diner for eight or nine hours with Tom on Queens Boulevard and make the teams every year. So when Stephonn came to camp, he was the underclassmen MVP, then he was the MVP again the year after against the best players in the country. So his reputation explored. Then we played a national schedule when he was a freshman. We went to San Diego for Christmas, and then when he was a senior, we got invited to every tournament in the country. I asked him, where do you want to go? And he said, I want to go back to San Diego. So he played incredible out there. And one of the coaches out there, Jerry Tarini, was quoted as saying he's the high school point guard he's ever seen.

Speaker 2:

That says a lot. In terms of the hoopla, how would you describe when you go either at the gym in Lincoln or Unreal? Unreal. Yeah, yeah. How

Speaker 3:
Would you got to realize there was no social media then?

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker 3:

You understand that? So I would argue, I think I can make the argument probably Felipe started it, Felipe Lopez, the year before Stefan, Stefan was probably the most hyped and publicized player in high school basketball ever at that time. Because the national exposure started. It started at that point. It was nothing like it is now. He was on, I don't know if you're familiar with all of this. I don't know how much homework you were able to do on this. He was on Nightline, which was the biggest, we were on Charlie Rose.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I've seen that. I've watched that.

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Okay, that was August of 1994. You saw us on Charlie Rose. This is unheard of, at that point, a high school basketball player to go be on Charlie, the other two people that were on the show with us, e Wezel, who's a historic figure from the Holocaust,

Speaker 2: And

Speaker 3:

Chris Matthews, who became one of the top political commentators years later, that's the show. You saw it. Chris Matthews at Stefan Marbury, which is incredible. If you think about it.

Speaker 2:

Can you pinpoint his best games or is there one that immediately jumps to mind where you think that was probably,

Speaker 3:

I dunno, again, we're going back. Okay. A couple come to mind. The city championship game against an incredibly talented Robeson team. I mean, they had five players that went to the Big East Robeson. They had nine division one players. Teon was unbelievable in that game. I mean, there's loads of them. And then another one that stands out was the state championship that same year against Christ the King who had Lamar Odom, Eric Barkley, speedy Claxton, three NBA players. And Stefan had 21 in the first half against him. Yeah. Then there was the game when he was the senior, we played against Shaheen, Holloway and St. Patrick's for New Jersey. They were considered the number one high school senior point guard in the country, Stefan and the number one junior high school point guard in the country, Shaheen Holloway. We played them at Fordham. And that was an incredible game in another incredible performance.

I'm not going to talk about the games where we had much more talent than the other teams in the league and stuff. I'm talking about the national, when he played against national level players predominantly was, and at A B, C, D, which was arguably the best point guard camp ever. And I could go on and on about who was there by the end of the camp. It was a debate before camp started, who was the best point guard by the end of camp. There was no debate. It was one. After we put Stefan and all of those guys in the same bracket when we made the teams, Tom, myself and Gary de Caesar, and one by one, Stefan just totally proved who the best point guard America was.

Speaker 2:
And I mean, who else was in the mix at that camp?

Speaker 3:

In that camp? Okay, I have to remember, I'll remember as many as I can. Wayne Turner who wound up at Kentucky, sham, God who wound up at Providence, who's now with God, sham Guard, Wayne Turner, Von Tigo, Cummings. These were the ones that before camp started, a lot of these guys who knew these other kids would come to me and say, my guy's better than Stefan. I said, okay, I never saw your kid play. I'm not going to say anything but end of camp. There was no debate, sham guard, it was about eight of 'em. Wayne Turner was considered number one by a lot of people. So we made sure that Stefan

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played against Wayne Turner in the last game of the camp. And anybody that would be objective would tell you who the best point guard in the car. Nothing against those other kids. They were all great players. I'm leaving out a few others. We're going back to 1990, summer of 1994, so it's a while back, but at least some of them that were at camp. And of course Kobe Bryant was not a point guard. Obviously he was at that camp and a lot of other great players. But point guard wise, Deon played against six or seven of the top point guards in America.

Speaker 2:
And Bobby, thanks again for this call. I've got a

Speaker 3:

Few more questions. It's not hard for me to brag about to boast about Stefan, but it's all true. Anybody that is objective would tell you the same. If Tom was here, God rest his soul, he would tell you the same things.

Speaker 2:

So I've got a handful more questions about Lincoln and then I want to switch over to just some questions about Tom. And so you won City championships in 86, 91 and 95.

Speaker 3: That's correct.

Speaker 2:
So what was your best team when you think back on those championship teams that you

Speaker 3:

I will never compare the teach. They're all completely different. They're all unique in their own way. In 86, nobody knew who we were. I would say even now, guys that were still involved back then could not even, even probably couldn't name three of the five starters on our team. Most people wouldn't even know who they were. So they came out of nowhere as far as they would've been heavy underdogs to win a championship. Nobody even knew who they were. And actually then we won upstate and beat Molloy in double overtime with Kenny Anderson, who they were ranked number one in the state. So that was an incredible team. Obviously your first championship is something extra special. The second, the 91 team, everybody said, we're not going to be that good that year because Norman had graduated Stefan's brother and they said, you guys can't win. We had a lot of underclassmen and that team came out of nowhere and became the city championship team. And then of course Stefan's team was obviously he had Stefan and Jamel Thomas with a lot of other good players, but a great year. And the team we wound up playing in the final. The Roberson team, as I said earlier, was incredible. They had two kids that went to Georgetown, six, 10 and six eight and two guards that went to the Big East. So those games, you could all probably get a tape of them.

Each team is different. So I can't say one was I love them all and I can't compare one to the other. They were different. And of course the years are different. The competition was different. So it wasn't like the same kids were on each team. It was a three completely separate entity. No one person was on all three of those teams because the gap from 86 to 91 to 95 was there's nobody that's still around. It's not like a professional team where you have the same kids. Each individual one was special.

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Did you run the same offense and defense?

Speaker 3:
Not exactly. Yeah. So that we had to make some adjustments based on what we had.

Speaker 2:
So can you just talk about just what you ran as a coach in terms of your offenses and defenses?

Speaker 3:

You're asking me to remember a long way back, but I'll do my best. From what I, all three teams were outstanding defensively that I will say, but differently because different personnel, but they were all very good defense. We hardly ever played zone. We were always almost always a man to man team for the most part. But the first team was tremendous defensively. And you also have to remember in 86, it might've been the first year of the three point rule or might not have come in yet. So we didn't shoot very many threes if there were any, because it just started then 91 already three point was in it, and then of course 95 was completely three point line is a part of high school basketball. So that automatically changes you offensively. And when you have somebody like a Stefan who has NBA three point range in high school, your whole offense is going to be different. It's predicated around some different things. And Jamel Thomas, who I mentioned quite a bit was phenomenal. Also, he just got inducted into the Providence Basketball Hall of Fame last year, who's actually Stefan's cousin. So that's a whole other story.

We played a lot more half court, from what I remember on the 91 team, we pounded the ball inside a lot more to James who was the MVP of the PSAO playoffs that year. So each team was a little bit different in their profile. I can't say that they were exactly the same, but there's still some basic principles. Doesn't matter who you coach, you try to instill. They were all very unselfish, they're all really rooted for each other. All of those teams, all three of them. And they're all a pleasure to coach. They really were as all the teams that didn't win the championship. I'm not singling those three out that you asked me, but I had a lot of perfect teams. We lost some that doesn't take anything away from the one that I was lucky enough to have a lot of great kids, lots of them. And they've all become great men, I must say, because I'm in touch with quite a bit of them now. They stay in touch.

Speaker 2:

So that was one of the questions, and then I want to get to Tom, but why do you think Coney Island is such a hotbed for basketball? It's like,

Speaker 3:

You know what? I don't know if you've been to Coney Island or whoever reads or hears this is going to know. Coney Island geographically is extremely small. Yeah. Jonney Island is about, let's see from say 17th, 18th Street. It's probably 15, 16 blocks long from 17th Street, 18th Street to like 33rd. And then width, it's probably three avenues. That's Coney Island geographically. It's small. There's a lot of obviously public housing and things in Coney Island. So it's quite full of plenty full with people. But it's a geographically relatively small area. And I would argue there can't be many places in America, if anywhere, that have more successful talent in that kind of a geographic area than we've had in Coney

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Island. And I was lucky enough to coach at Lincoln where many of these kids went to school. So I was

very fortunate.

Speaker 2:
I mean, do you think it's just part of the culture of Coney Island basketball is just part of the

Speaker 3:

Culture? I would think so based on all the years I've known the kids and I taught at Lincoln and stuff, yeah, they're competing since they're little with each other. And it's now, I don't know what it's like these days, but it was back then very, very competitive environment. And not every kid came to Lincoln, some went to Lafayette, some went to Grady and all, a lot of a large majority of 'em, Coney Island. I had some other kids that didn't come from Coney Island that came to Lincoln from the other side of Brooklyn. But for the most part, we were Coney Island oriented kids lived in Coney Island, and they got on the bus and they were in school in 10 minutes.

Speaker 2:

And Bobby, just some questions about Tom. Do you remember when you first became aware of Tom or when you first met

Speaker 3:

Him? Yes, a little bit for the two years that I told you I was before, I was the head coach at Lincoln. Mark Reiner, your rest in peace, who was a wonderful, legendary coach, coached at Lincoln for two years. So I didn't know Mark, but I, myself and a few other friends of mine, we went and met him and volunteered if we wanted to help out. And so I got to know him. I was with Mark for two years. So when Mark, who I coached in Kensi, some great, great teams in Kensi High School, I don't know if you'll remember any of this. You might be too young to remember any of this. He had a tremendous team in 1976 at Kensi High School. Then he went to college and he came back and he coached at Lincoln because he went to Lincoln. And Mark knew Tom from back in the days, I guess when he was coaching in high school.

So Tom would come to some games and things like that. And Mark, I believe Mark probably the first one to introduced me to Tom, but, and so I kind of knew Tom. And then as the years went on, we got closer and closer to the point that we became to my good fortune to be a friend of Tom Kowski, one of the finest human beings that ever lived. And then Tom, when we got to the A, B, CD camp, Tom was one the person that helped us make up the teams every year. He knew all of these kids. Like I said, we sat in a diner for nine hours, 10 hours, making up the teams for camp. Tom was always involved with that.

Speaker 2:
Was that the Georgia Diner or

Speaker 3:
No, that's on Queens Boulevard was It was a few blocks from Tom's house.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3:

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What the hell was it? The name of it? I don't know. It was myself and Gary de Caar. We used to meet Tom in that diner, and then that diner either closed or the owners. So then we switched to a diner in Brooklyn that I knew that one was the three star. I remember that one. And we would sit there for literally 7, 8, 9 hours. We met nine in the morning, and we'd be there six, seven o'clock at night making up the teams for camp and Tom. And then any question I had about anything, Tom's the man to ask you want anything you want to know, Tom? Then he would come to, I don't know if people have told you this. Tom always sat in the same spot at all these games and camp. He had a spot where on the yellow pad, the legendary yellow pad. You've heard about that, I'm sure.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I've I've been curious about his archives and papers, and I don't know where those went, but he told me that his house or his apartment was just

Speaker 3:

Full of, are you doing stuff on Tom, per se? Yeah. I would give you a reference of somebody was extremely close with Tom, certainly towards the tail end of his life, who was a very close friend of mine. See, we used to meet every summer. If I'm going off the topic, you let me know, but Sure,

Speaker 2:
Sure. No, no, I'm with you. I'm

Speaker 3:

Every summer. Tom insisted that we meet for dinner in Brooklyn. My assistant coach's name was Gerard Bell. He owned a restaurant in Bay Ridge where I lived. Tom, myself shoes. I don't know if you know these names, you might not even know him. Shoes. Barry Rosson is the person I'm talking about who's very involved in Tom's Foundation right now. Barry would pick Tom up, Barry's somebody. If you're doing anything about Tom, you should definitely get in touch with Barry.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 3:

He had, and I'll give you his number if you need it, but Barry was extremely close to Tom. Barry lives up in the Riverdale. He would pick Tom up and drive him to Skin Flint. We met when we knew Tom wasn't doing that well, it was kind of getting a little bit obvious. Tom insisted that we have dinner that summer at Skin Flint again, and Barry knows more than I know about. He said he has to see me and a couple other people. But that dinner, that traditional dinner we had every single summer, and Barry could tell you more about that. So Tom,

Speaker 2:
I'm definitely interested in Barry's number if

Speaker 3:

You have it. Yeah, I'll give it to you after. I'll text it to you or something. You'll tell me how to do it. But I have his number.

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And Bobby, I'm curious, when you think of Tom's, his basketball mind, I know he was encyclopedia.

Speaker 3:

Firstly, he had a photographic memory. Let's start there. Everybody knows that. I would say to him, okay, he's a perfect example. Kidding around. Half kidding, half kidding. In front of other people once in a while, I would say, Tom, what was the weather like in 1986 when we played for the city championship? He would go, sir, it was a little cloudy that morning, and then it was, and he was a hundred percent right. I didn't check it. It was brilliant. Just brilliant. I mean, it was funny and not funny because he was so brilliant. He had memory. I can't remember what I had yesterday. I'd ask Tom, he would tell me I camp. Anything that went on at camp, he would know it. He was brilliant in many ways. Not only basketball wise, but he had a photographic memory. He really did.

Speaker 2:

And I asked him the question, one of the questions I asked him when I interviewed him a bunch was, what gyms did you spend the most time in his life? And he mentioned Lincoln as one of them, and was there a lot? I'm just wondering how often would you see him during,

Speaker 3:

Well, we had another traditional thing when he came to Lincoln. We would always eat, this is a standard thing. We go out to dinner right after the game at the three star, the three star restaurant, the same place that we wound up making up those tees for A, B, C, D. And then after we eat the three star, I would drop 'em off. I think it was the F train, because you well know Tom didn't drive all the three. So I would always drop him off. He would say to me, sir, are we going to go to the three star after the game? I said, of course, Tom. So we always went to the three star to eat after the game, and Tom always had the same thing for dessert, a chocolate chip cookie, whatever. We ate anywhere. And I always forget, he had to have the chocolate chips either on the inside or the outside. I forget which that one of Tom's things. Did you stick the shoes? You know shoes? No, no. Uhuh. Okay. I'm going to give you, there's a reason shoes could tell you history was shoe's. Shoe's Mother used to watch Tom's family or vice versa. I'm going to give you these numbers because they're very relevant.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 3:

Shoes goes back with Tom since he's a little kid. Shoes grew up in Queens. So Barry Rosson and shoes are two people that you need to talk to about Tom. After we finish, I'll give you those numbers.

Speaker 2:
And I've heard a lot about his legendary handshake, and I'm just wondering,

Speaker 3:
How did he treat players

Speaker 2:

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Speaker 3:

Every single, this is the worst he would ever say about anyone. I'd say, what about, so-and-So I'm not going to mention any names who I knew he didn't particularly care for because sir, he's not my cup of tea. That's the biggest negative that Tom would ever say publicly about anyone. Tom, that was the biggest thing you could say. He's not my cup of tea, sir. That's it. I mean, listen, how about this one? I'll give you another little story. Yeah, we win the championship. Like I said, 86, nobody knew. We came out of kind of nowhere. So now we're going upstate to play and who do we get in the first round? Malloy. But again, I wasn't super close with Tom then I was getting to know him over those first few years. So I figured, let me call Tom. I never saw Malloy play.

I heard about Kenny Anderson, but I never saw him, and they were number one in the state of New York by far. They were ranked number one. They were not supposed to lose. So I called Tom for a scouting report, not knowing that he's a Malloy graduate. I don't know that. So I call him up and I say, Tom, I was wondering if give me some information on Malloy. So he didn't say, oh, I can't give you that. I graduated mall lawyer. I'm rooting for Malloy. He couldn't say that we had become friendly. So I said, tell me about this kid, Kenny Anderson. Can he go to his left? I still remember this conversation for some reason. I said, can he go to his left? He goes, oh, he's a lefty. He's lefty, sir. I said, oh, can he go to his right? Oh, yes, he can. Very well. And this went on and on about everything. He wouldn't be rude to me. I can say I can't say anything, but he wouldn't give me too much information. But what he was in school, I didn't know that at the time. So it was incredible. What a perfect gentleman he was. And I'm sure he had mixed feelings. Obviously Malloy, he bleeds Malloy, you know that.

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker 3:

Malloy was everything, but yet he was getting friendly with me, and it just happened that we played them up there and we wound up beating them in double overtime in a legendary game that nobody's seen. It was at Glen's Falls, and I've been trying to get a tape of that game for 30 years, but I couldn't, but Tom wouldn't give me a scattering report completely. But he also wouldn't be nasty or negative in the way he handled it, because that's Tom, him giving out information about Malloy. That's unheard of.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I watched YouTube with you and I think a couple of your former players, and you mentioned when you were from Marcy and then that you also played JV at Jefferson and that you saw Connie Hawkins play at

Speaker 3:

Boise Girls. No, I never saw Hawkins. I never saw Hawkins. I saw Hawkins play. I shouldn't say that. When I was in high school or when they were in high school, Connie Hawkins and Roger Brown, the legendary twosome. Tom's no one guy. That was Connie Hawkins. Yeah, I got to know that years later when we used to talk about a lot of stuff. So I never saw Hawkins when he was at Boys High and Roger Brown, who's the legend at Wingate, but I saw them play together on a team in the Brownsville Boys Club, I guess. I don't know what you called it back then, what they call a U now or something in a

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tournament at the end of their high school season. I just went to see them. I heard so much about them.

So I did see Hawkins play one time, but not with his high school. I saw him play one.

Speaker 2:
What do you remember from that?

Speaker 3:

Well, what I remember is that the day I saw the game, I think Brown played. They were on the same team, but they were both ridiculously good, but I think Brown played better that day. But Hawkins got the MVP of the tournament and the high scoring trophy ironically went to Mark Reer, who I didn't know then, and I wound up coaching with 30 or 40 years later, and I once said to him, how could you be the high scorer you just played with Roger Brown? And Connie Kins laughing, and Mark was a hell of a player also, from what I understand. But Hawkins and Brown are two, I think anybody that knows high school basketball from back in the day would put them for sure on the first team in the history of New York City high school basketball. I think both of them would be, I don't want to send anybody's list both.

Speaker 2:
Did you ever see Alder play at Power, or did you ever make

Speaker 3: No Alder?

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

No, I don't think there's any debate in anybody's mind that's objective. The greatest high school player ever in New York is Lou Alder.

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker 3:

I don't think anybody would argue that anybody that knows anything, and that is being objective, Lou Alend is the greatest high school player ever. Tom will tell you the same thing. And then Hawkins and Brown would have to be in on that team. If there was a first team, then you could argue about who would be the other two. But those three, I think in most people's minds that have been around long enough would say Hawkins Brown and Al Cinder, the three no-brainers. You could argue who the guards would be, but everybody have their own opinion on that one.

Speaker 2:
So Bobby, I appreciate this call and I want to respect your time and wrap it

Speaker 3:

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This transcript was exported on Feb 11, 2024 - view latest version here. Up. It's okay. Today. I have plenty of time today. This worked out fine,

Speaker 2:
And I'm definitely, well, I'm looking at my list here and I have a few more. And

Speaker 3:
Go ahead. I got time.

Speaker 2:

So you mentioned Kenny Anderson and Malloy, Mark Jackson and Bishop Rod Strickland. Those were questions. I know you were in the PSAL, but how often would you face that off against the 18?

Speaker 3:

Several different things. We almost always, we played against Mark Jackson, the Bishop Lockin. We scheduled a non-League game against, lemme just turn. We scheduled. We wound up playing Kenny Anderson, like I said, upstate when he was a freshman at Malloy. That was the 80 16. We wound up planking, but I also coached in the wheelchair, which I know. Are you familiar with the Wheelchair Classic?

Speaker 2:
No, no, no. Uhuh.

Speaker 3:

Okay. Tom was very involved in that. You probably want to speak to some the Wheelchair Classic, which I think it still exists, but not like it was a postseason tournament. It was borough versus Borough.

Speaker 2: So

Speaker 3:

Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, and Staten Island were combined into one Borough and the Bronx, and it went on for many years. It was the greatest postseason tournament you could ever imagined. It's an all- star games. So obviously you get two games. I happened to be an assistant coach in the wheelchair for about seven years, so I was assistant on the Brooklyn team. So sometimes you'd see those kids, even if you didn't see them during the year, you would see them in the wheelchair because that was all the great players played in the Wheelchair Classic. Even occasionally, they'd bring a kid in from out of New York, because the thing is, we won it in Brooklyn, I think about nine or 10 years in a row during those years. So every year, if you try to get somebody, they bought Charles Smith from Connecticut one year to play. So Pearl, I coached Pearl against Pearl Ed Daven.

There's another one I didn't mention. We went to Kentucky. I mean, there's so many, Gerald Green, I could go on and on with guards in New York. So the wheelchair, Tom was really involved in the wheelchair. I don't know who you would call. Tom was involved obviously with the Queens team. I don't know if he picked the team. And then you had to visit. The purpose of the wheelchair is there's a hospital with disabled, many disabled people called Goldwater Hospital. It's in, I figure out what island it

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is over there in Randall's Island, somewhere in one of the islands in Manhattan. It's been so long. Part of when you make the wheelchair team, whoever makes it, every kid must visit the hospital. You don't play in the game if you don't visit and write an essay. Now, Tom might've been involved at the wheelchair from the beginning. I don't know. You're going to have to ask someone, maybe his brother. But Tom was definitely majorly involved in the wheelchair, one of the great charities of all time. So you could check a little bit about the wheelchair basketball classic. The guy who used to run knew if he still around. Huh? Where were those games played?

I remember we played at Mad Christie some years, which is now St. John's Prep. We played at, I'm trying to remember some of the different places we played. It wasn't the same place every year. See, I could tell you who, I could give you a million people, but I don't know how much you want Ray Haskins. Yeah, yeah, I'm open to that. Yep. Okay. Ray Haskins, who was the head of the Brooklyn Group, was also extremely close with Tom, extremely Ray Haskins, Alexander Hamilton for many, many years, which was a powerhouse. They won the city championship with pros. Again, I'm going back. Ray Haskins was on the wheelchair committee. He could fill you in a lot about what Tom's responsibilities were and his involvement. So I have numbers for all of these guys, if you want 'em, whether it Yeah, I do. I definitely, definitely. I'll make sure when we finish that you get all your numbers. I'll get you in touch with Barry. I'll get you in touch with shoes and I mean, I'll give you the numbers and I'll give you the numbers for Ray Haskins. You mentioned the name Tom to anyone, if you mention Tom's name, anybody will respond you. You say the name Tom Kowski. Even if you leave a message and say, I'm doing something about Tom Kowski, they will respond because you know how much respect and admiration everybody had for Tom.

Speaker 2:
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker 3:

So I'll make sure Ray could fill you in on the wheelchair involvement with Tom. Like I said, shoes knows Tom since he's a little kid. And Barry literally, he drove Tom to doctor's appointments at the end. Barry could tell you a lot more. He used to tell me because we're still real close. Barry would drive Tom to the doctor, I think. Yeah,

Speaker 2:

As I mentioned before, I've been trying to track down his papers and I emailed Steve, his brother about some of his reports, and Steve sent me a couple of them in the mail. But I know i's part of this project is I'm curious about his reports as well. And

Speaker 3:

I'm trying to, I don't know if Barry, they may or may not know Barry lives in Riverdale. His brother Steve, who I never met his brother, but you know of him. He's in Canada, I assume, right?

Speaker 2:
Yeah, Nova Scotia. Yep, yep.

Speaker 3:

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Yeah. So Barry would pick Tom up, take him all over the place. Tom's last, I don't know what year or I don't know exactly. Barry was always picking him up and taking him. Him and Joe Dunleavy. That's another, but Barry is a perfect person for you to call as well as shoes. Now, shoes calls me every day. We're very close. So when I speak to him later, I'm going to tell him to expect a call from you about Tom.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd like to.

Speaker 3:

They'll be more than willing to talk to you anything about Tom, and they could give you some insight that I don't have Barry, no, Tom from Five Star. I never worked Five Star. Barry knows Tom from Five Star.

Speaker 2:
Is this your cell phone, Bobby, or is this your landline, or

Speaker 3: What's that?

Speaker 2:
Is this your cell phone number or your

Speaker 3:
Landline? Yeah, this is the only thing I use. The cell phone.

Speaker 2:
Oh, cell phone. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, if you text me those.

Speaker 3:

Okay, now, if I text you the numbers, do I text you them on this phone that we're talking on now? Or the other number that you called me on or it matter number?

Speaker 2:
I can give you that number if you have a pen.

Speaker 3:

I have it in my phone. I put you in my phone when you left a message. So it's a five two oh number something five two oh or something

Speaker 2:
Like that. That's it. Yep.

Speaker 3:

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So if I text you on the five two oh number, I'm going to text you shoes. His name is Greg Ratone, but everybody calls him shoes. Everyone. His real name is Greg Ratone, but he goes back with Thompsons, he's little, so you could address him as shoes, he won't be insulted. And then Barry Rosson, she's going to say, Barry, I'm going to text you that. And then Ray Haskins, I'm going to text you all three of those numbers and if you have any questions, you can feel free to call me at any time.

Speaker 2:
Thank you, Bobby. And part of this project, I work at a community college.

Speaker 3: Where

Speaker 2:

At? I lived in New York, so I'm in Texas now, but my You're in Texas? Yeah, I'm in Texas. So I was out in New York for about six or seven years, and then my girlfriend at the time moved to Texas to do a PhD at ut, so I followed her, but I was coaching basketball in the South Bronx in Hunts Point at a tiny little charter school. But anyway,

Speaker 3:
New York. Oh, Gary Caesar, by the way, is Gary the Caesar on your list to call? He is.

Speaker 2:
Yep, yep, yep. Okay, good,

Speaker 3: Good.

Speaker 2: But Gary,

Speaker 3:

Gary was the co-director of A, B, C, D with me, Gary, myself, and Tom did all the stuff for A, B, C, D, just the three of us. So other people may tell you they did things, but that's not what happened was myself, Tom, and Gary, as far as putting the teams in. Gary's wonderful. He's a great guy. So Bobby, I'm sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you. So you're in Texas.

Speaker 2:
Yeah. This project is really,

Speaker 3:
But now how is this going to appear in an article or,

Speaker 2:

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Well, no, so I'm doing, I've got these oral histories that I did with Tom where I recorded about five hours of conversation with him and I have 'em all transcribed. So I don't know what I'm going to do with these, but I definitely,

Speaker 3:
You let me know what you're doing.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I will. I'll let you know. And then I just have a couple more questions and then I'm going to wrap this up, but

Speaker 3: That's

Speaker 2:
Fine. I read the Darcy Fray book

Speaker 3: About

Speaker 2:
Making basketball.

Speaker 3: Alex,

Speaker 2: What's that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, don't get me started on that because we're be here for three more hours. Alright. All I can tell you, you're getting me started. I'm telling you this now, but I got to tell you, he won awards for that book. That book was nationally recognized. There were so many lies and distortions in that book. I could go on and on, but I'll try and be but succinct.

Speaker 2: How

Speaker 3:

Did it come about? I'll tell you real quick. He said he wanted to do a school. He looked into two or three schools in the area, New York, New Jersey, inner city school, so to speak, where he heard that it was, the program was not only a winning basketball program. This is what he told me when he proposed to do the book, but that he heard that the kids come from poor neighborhoods, but they're very successful academically and all these positives. I visited two or three schools, including us after the season was

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over in 1991. It must have been 91. Yeah, after that season, we had just won the city championship 91. He came around April or May, April let's say, and proposed about the book and blah, blah, blah. And he met the kids and one thing led to another. He said, I want to do the book about Lincoln.

It's an unbelievable things that you guys are doing here. And then he wrote a book with some of the most negative, he read the book, his portrayal of some of these kids, and I could go on and on, but I'll try and be brief. He says about Stefan in the book, don't forget, Stefan is 13 years old, not even at Lincoln yet. People got to keep this in perspective. He says A 13-year-old kid Stefan's talking about, and he was taking Stefan to Nathans and buying him things over that summer, and he's talking about, Stefan said, I want to get paid and I want to do this. This is a 13-year-old kid. Do you think he even spoke to his parents and say, can I put this stuff in a book? Would you put a 13-year-old kid's comments in a book and make it sound like he's selfish and greedy?

And then on and on about some of the negativity that he said. And some of it were just out and out lies. If you see in the book, like I said, don't get me started, but you did know, he puts in the book, one of the kids' names is not in the book if you saw it. He said, I had to change his name to Russell Thomas. That kid's real name was Darryl flicking. Why isn't he in the book under the name Darryl flicking? Because Darryl flicking mother would not approve of him being in the book. I told Dossy at the time, all of these parents have to approve of you putting their sons in a book with their real names. And Darryl's mother wouldn't do it. And Daryl, I could go on and on The year before, Darryl had a tremendously serious incident where he was up on a roof threatening to jump, and I don't even want to get into all this.

I had to go talk him off the roof. But in the thing he says, I changed his name to Russell Thomas, and the reason he did that is not because he didn't want to embarrassed out because his mother threatened a lawsuit. If he put, then he says, Mr. Marbury asked him for money to be in the book. That's totally false. Also, he did. And then when we told Mr. Marbury, you can't do that because it would hurt Stefan's eligibility, he said, okay, fine. Let Darcy, since he's going to sell this book and if it ever became a movie, Mr. Marbury said to him, I want him to give some proceeds to the Lincoln basketball to the Lincoln Athletic program. And Darcy agreed to that, and the book became a bestseller. And you know how much he gave to Lincoln Zero? He didn't do the book. He didn't do the book.

That book ended before the season started. I could go on and on. That book was over before the season was completed because two of the parents, Darryl flicking mother and Mr. Marbury would not allow him to do it without him either doing something for the school or Darryl flicking mother did not want her son's name in the book because he had attempted talking about possibly committing suicide. That's a lot of stuff that Dcy pay you in the book. And then he portrays me on the first page, I look like you Jewish uncle. What is the reference? What does me being Jewish have to do with anything? The first page he refers to me as, I look like your uncle at a Jewish buddy that's totally irrelevant to anything. And he portrays the school as some inner city lunatic ghetto school, which if anybody's ever been to Lincoln, they're like, this is the school that he's talking about in the book. It's beautiful. I could go on and on and on, but it's sold books. It was required reading in some colleges.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm happy to get this on record. And the other question I had too was about Spike Lee and he got game and I wondered did,

Speaker 3:

I've never seen he got game, so I can't answer the question. I've never seen it. People think I'm crazy. Somebody said to me recently, you never saw he got game. I said, no, I have no interest in seeing it. I

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have never seen it. I mean, I know what it's about. And supposedly based on Stefan, and supposedly Stefan says that Spike Lee, I don't know, didn't want Stefan. I don't even know, to be honest with you. I can't comment on things. I don't know.

Speaker 2:

Yep, yep. That's fair. That's fair. So last question, you said you coached Don for two years. He went to Texas a and m.

Speaker 3:

Well, Don to junior college. First Don went to junior college. Then Texas a and m, who became, I think he was in the top 10 in the country in scoring at Texas a and m. Norman I had for four years. Yes. Norman was from the ninth grade all the way through high school. Through his four years, Norman.

Speaker 2:
Norman got a scholarship to Tennessee and wasn't able to do

Speaker 3:

It. They screwed them because I got a call. Okay. At that time, the requirements, you had to have a two oh index, which is like a CI guess you would say, and 700 on the SAT. That was the NCA requirement. But a lot of the kids struggled with the SATs, lots of them. So Norman got tutoring, whatever the bottom line is, he got up to about six 80 or whatever it was. I don't remember the exact numbers, so he didn't qualify, but they told me at the time when they were recruiting him, if he doesn't qualify, we'll take him as they called then at Prop 48, I don't know what the rules are now because it's been a long time, which means you sit for a year, but you go to school and then you do what you're supposed to as a freshman, you play as a sophomore.

I get a call, I'm going to say three days before the school started at Tennessee, I get a call telling me they can't get 'em in. You can't get 'em in. Now you're telling me this. What am I supposed to do? So it was unbelievable what they did to this day. I don't know why they did what they did, but it was disgraceful. They can't get 'em in. Tennessee is not Harvard. I'm not knocking the science school, but you can't get 'em in. They've had other Prop 40 eights. I know that. So anyway, the bottom line is, huh? Who was the coach? Who

Speaker 2:
Was, yeah, was it Rick Barnes or

Speaker 3:

Who? No, no, no, no. Rick Barnes recruited Rick Bury. It was Alan Houston's father, Wade Houston. Alan Houston was Norman would've played with Alan Houston if they would've taken him, but he didn't. Wade Houston's the one that was the coach then. So now I'm scrambling around. Arkansas was ready to take him, but school had already started. They couldn't get him in. So I had to send Norman to a junior college, which he went down to San Jacinto in Texas. I don't know if you're familiar with San, I dunno if it still is. It was one of the big powerhouses. That's where Norman started at San Jacinto and he bounced around and whatever, but he should have gone to Tennessee. But it is what it is. But Norman is doing very well right now. He works in all of that. Family is all involved with education. All of them. Don Norman, they're all working for the board of New York, but they're all doing very well.

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And Bobby, so you coach 15 years at Lincoln and when you mentioned that you still stay in touch with a lot of your players,

Speaker 3:
Quite a few. Quite a few.

Speaker 2:

What are you most proud of when you think back on that 15 years in terms of developing young men and being a mentor and being a good coach to them?

Speaker 3:

I'm just real proud of the men they become right now. One of my players who was on the 86 team, not one of the big time names. Like I said, most people wouldn't know who they were. He's the number one. And I don't know how to, this podcast tough because I'm way past all of this. He's the number one podcaster in New York right now with high school sports. Glenn Harding. He's doing unbelievable stuff. He's interviewed, he just interviewed Stefan last week, two hours. He's had everybody on from back in those days, if Tom was around right now, Tom was here. He would've had Tom on in 10 seconds. So they're all doing extremely well. Just about all of them. I'm very, that's what I'm proud of, what kind of men they've become come a very, very high rate of success as far as what they've become as men. We're going back to 1980, so we're talking about 42 years ago, 43 years ago. So they're all, they're 60 years old, some of 'em now 58

Speaker 2: And they're all

Speaker 3:
Doing very well. Still

Speaker 2:
Check with you and you

Speaker 3:

Relat a few checkin, quite a few check-in pretty regularly. Quite a number of 'em I speak to on a regular basis. They're called the CO I'm doing and they're doing great overall.